Controversial Post: Why Is Vintage So White? - Part 1

Flashback Summer: Controversial Post - Why Is Vintage so White? - Part 1

I haven't posted in the past few days because I've been gearing up for this one! I don't think I've ever been so excited about a controversial post.

Today we have a panel of lovely vintage ladies that are here to talk about a tough issue: Why is the vintage community made up of mostly white people? 

Now before anyone puts up the defenses, this isn't going to be a guilt trip or accusation party for any of you, so don't worry.  This post has come from my own wonderings about how mostly white people gravitate toward vintage and why that is, and I've enlisted the help of women who are willing to share their unique perspectives and personal experiences on why this might be.  I'm a firm believer that personal relationships and listening to each other's stories are two of the biggest keys to achieving racial equality in our world!

I've also noticed that I have sometimes unintentionally thwarted efforts to meet that goal.  As a white person, it can be very scary to talk about racial issues in our society today.  I don't want to say something dumb or insensitive and get labeled an ignorant racist.  I don't want to hurt people's feelings.  I don't want to become a hated hashtag!  However, I do want to help. But I'm not always sure how I can help.  I know society has been skewed in my favor and that I probably do things to propitiate that, but I don't know exactly how I'm doing it, and I don't know how to fix it.  It can be frightening to ask, though.

From what I've heard, it can be frightening to talk about these issues as a member of a minority race, too.  It takes courage to call out a society that doesn't always value you.  It can be hard to be bold and take flak from people who don't understand your experience and who don't seem to want to understand.  It takes strength to intentionally bring up a subject that you know is going to rock the boat.  It can be hard to stand up in the face of stereotypes knowing that many people will assume who you are instead of listening to who you are, assuming they know your motivations already instead of discovering them.

This is going to be a long post, but I think it's an important one.  The goal is to find out how we as members of the vintage community can work together to support each other in a difficult world and how we can make our niche more accepting of all races.

OKAY, LET'S GET STARTED!

Meet the panel!



Carla - blogger at "Tiny Angry Crafts" | Nora - blogger at "Nora Finds" | Daffny - blogger at "A Vintage Nerd" | Angelique Noire - pinup model | Candace - pinup model

What initially drew you to vintage style and the community around it? 

Daffny: I have always been attracted to things from the past and I always loved history. I'm intrigued by how people live and was very close on becoming an Anthropology major at University. As a young girl I also spent a great deal of time with my grandma who introduced me to classic film and old fashioned living.

Angelique: I was drawn to the vintage style since childhood. My father constantly played Jazz music, and I regularly watched Classic movies. Naturally seeing the beautiful Old Hollywood actresses, I wanted to imitate their styles. I initially wanted to start modeling early on because I hoped to be made to look like those Old Hollywood actress. Little did I know, that being a Black woman, hindered my likelihood in being booked to do commercial print work in that style… As a result of being fed up with not being able to find many pictures of Black women shown in those styles I adore, I decided to share my passion via the Internet. When I did this, I discovered the vintage community that existed.

Carla: I initially was drawn to vintage from watching classic films with my grandpa. As I got older, I found out people dressed in those styles, and I wanted to play too.

Nora: What drew me to the vintage style are the elegance, the femininity, and the nature of vintage - where every pieces have their own story and we all find different treasures. Honestly the community didn't matter to me at first and it still doesn't. For me this is just the way I express myself but it doesn't dictate who I am. I don't limit myself to hang out with vintage kids only :)

Candace: Two words: Marilyn Monroe. When I got into Marilyn, about ten years ago I was surprised that what she wore could still be worn today, a lot of her dresses were very slimming and didn't look dated, the same can be said for Audrey Hepburn. The fashion is what drew me in first, and then the cars, and of course the men and everything fell into place there. I love the vintage style.

Angelique Noire - source
Did you feel immediately welcomed into the community, or were there some barriers you encountered, or even still deal with? How do you cope?

Nora: Yes I definitely felt welcomed. There are always snotty people or cliques but I didn't feel like it's any different from any community. The main challenge are people who decide that they are more "vintage" than others, which sometimes translate to rude racial comments - I had a vintage seller complaining about her customer, "I don't get why Chinese people dress so badly - they just don't get how to wear vintage."

Angelique: Being that I am a professional model, it was pretty easy to share nice pics online to use as bait. ;) My overall experiences have been pretty positive while participating in the vintage community…Often times I am praised by people of various races, so I feel as welcomed as anyone would.
       If what I seek to find are barriers within the 1920s-60s style lovers, then it is easy to see these barriers. Yes, I have witnessed followers/admirers tag their friend on my photos only to have the tagged friend respond in ways that show they had no desire to appreciate Black women. Yes, I have witnessed photographers who's body of work fail to show Black models, or they choose to include a few photos of the one "ethnically ambiguous" model they have photographed. Yes, I see retro clothing brands that don't use any Black models to model their clothing...Yes, I see pinup magazines that have yet to have a Black model on their cover. 
     All in all, I don't expect everyone to love me, especially if they fail to see beauty when it is displayed with brown skin. I can't totally fault them because the beauty icons of the 1920s-early 1960s era were mainly Caucasian or Caucasian looking. Rarely if ever were mainstream magazines, movies, print ads, etc. showcasing Black women as being beautiful...especially dark skinned Black women. When a person is constantly being subconsciously programmed by all forms of media that the Caucasian person was the beauty standard of that time, then vintage lovers of today will naturally gravitate toward going crazy over the blonde, brunette, or redhead pinups more than they would a Black Pinup. For those in the vintage community who have broadened their appreciation for fellow vintage lovers of various ethnicities, those people are the ones from whom I feel appreciation.

Candace: I was quite surprised that it was very accepting; I thought I would be seen as weird or strange, that a black girl loves Marilyn Monroe and love classic Hollywood movies and lifestyle as much as white people do. Where I came from that wasn’t cool, when I started to get into the pinup/vintage/retro culture a lot of black people looked at me crazy and said I was trying to “act white” or “be white” so I would try to hide it so I wouldn’t feel alienated. That didn’t work out too well because when I talk on a subject that I love watch out I can go on about it for years! Haha!

Carla: After I stopped being scared, and started to talk about vintage sewing and the like on my blog, I felt very welcomed. I was initially terrified because I didn't see anyone who looked like me in the blogging world, who would regularly blog. But, I shrugged it off, and just went on and did my own thing.

Nora - source
Do you have to overcome barriers or stereotypes from people outside the vintage community as you rock vintage style? Have you gotten flak from others in your racial group that don't wear vintage?

Candace: Oh my goodness yes! Like I said the vintage/retro/pinup community has been very welcoming but anyone outside that is a pain to deal with. Especially, from my race (African-American), it’s the most difficult thing because it’s not a cool or popular thing. They always bring race into it, and I know that there was segregation but we can’t change the past. I can’t help it that Gregory Peck was a great actor and Lucille Ball makes me laugh. I just see talent, I know of the racial problems, but that’s not the first thing I look at. Unfortunately, there are a lot of narrow-minded people out there that if you don’t like anything that’s black if you’re black, you’re abandoning your people and forgetting your roots and are trying to be white. Never mind the fact that I have a business of black pinups promoting black women and talking about black history of female entertainers.

Nora: Just as anyone who's adopting a new fashion style I did get some comments like, "You're very dressed up," but no one has ever been rude or anything. I haven't gotten any negative comments too from my racial group, mostly just comments like, "I don't know how to start wearing vintage," or, "Ijust don't think it'll look good on me!"

Carla: Well, usually if I'm all dolled up and am wearing a hat, I get asked if I'm on my way to church. I had someone call me Aunt Jemima when I was rocking one of my hair scarves on the bus. I flipped him off, and he said nothing the rest of the ride.
In my own racial group, I've gotten "Why do you want to dress like a white girl?" a lot.
Aside from that, I just get the usual 'Oh I wish people dressed up more' from older folks, and people being super polite to me.

Angelique: For the most part, I have received an abundance of appreciation from many different women. I have yet to see comments or hear someone ridicule my physical appearance. I guess I am lucky.  On many occasions, I have heard and read negative comments about several popular pinups in the vintage community.
    ...In spite of how easy it is for pinup magazines to get women to submit their pinup style pics without compensating them for their efforts, there are still pinup magazines that have yet to put Black Pinups on their covers. In the pinup world, any female can be an "internationally published" model because all it takes is sending your pictures to the various magazines, which is very different from what I'm accustomed to as a mainstream model. So it is a lack of effort on the magazines part to not publish a Black woman on their cover. Just like it is a lack of effort for Repro companies to lack showing diversity in the models they use...and I am not referring to the diversity of hair color or tattoo vs non-tattooed Caucasian pinups. 

Daffny: You may be surprised by this but here in New York not much shocks or surprises people unless you are wearing very sexy or revealing clothing. If you do dress that way then yes, you will get a lot of stares and comments being made. I, on the other hand, have never encountered any flak from anyone within my culture or from strangers. I am usually with my family and people stare at me more because they see me with three small children or because of my leg braces. I have often received lovely comments from strangers, both men and women. I have found more men seem to appreciate the vintage look and are not shy about saying how much they like my look. I think older gentlemen appreciate it it when a woman dresses like an old fashioned lady. I know some people find the word Lady and the phrase "Lady-like" to be a bad thing but I love it and I very much consider myself a lady.

Daffny - source
What have been your observations on who the vintage community holds up as the "ideal" beauty type (if there seems to be one)? Where does this ideal come from, and what effect do you think this has on the community? 

Carla: I was actually talking about this with a friend the other day. This whole slightly scary obsession with 'being pale' in the vintage world is something that I've seen a lot. This is amusing, as during the mid-century there were a plethora of sun tanning lotions, and concoctions to give that "sun-kissed" look. I think with Dita and the revival of vintage fashion/burlesque, people have set her as the ideal modern vintage woman, which shows in a lot of things.


Angelique: As demonstrated during the 1940s and 50s the "beauty ideal" was a Caucasian woman, which naturally the vintage community and modern media's version of this era continues to perpetuate. In addition, plastic surgery, chemical facial enhancements, and/or the trend of body tattooing are also common factors we see displayed by most of the popular pinup models. It shows that the quest for "perfection" (as demonstrated in modern society), also influences vintage lovers even though these enhancements were considered very taboo during the 40s and 50s.

Nora: The ideal beauty type for me seems to be long luscious hair, luscious lips, small waist. I observe that this standard is the same across races but I definitely think these three features are the favorites.

Daffny: The vintage community seems to be comprised many different categories of vintage… At the end of the day no matter how they dress, these folks love vintage. I have found through observation that the extremes of those in the community are the ones who seems to get the most attention. The purest [head-to-toe vintage] and the unconventional. If I were to choose which is the most popular at the moment I would have to say the unconventional. I think for a long time the ideal look was the pale skin and ruby red lips and perfect victory rolls. Now it seems people want to see either those who dress exactly like a specific decade or those who take it to another level and add pink hair to the mix. I think its made the community more diverse but its also confused those wondering if this person is a part of community and perhaps confuses bloggers who wonder if they are indeed a vintage blogger or not.

Candace: When I first entered this vintage community, I knew Marilyn was the most beloved, worshipped woman in it, her and Bettie Page, at first I couldn’t see what the big deal was until I watched a movie of Marilyn (Don’t Bother to Knock-1952) and was mesmerized by her. I saw a lot of hour glass models and thought I had to be 5’9 and skinny to be a model. Thanks to Facebook I have seen a growth in pinup and was pleasantly surprised that the vintage community accepts all looks, body types, age, etc. I don’t think that there is an effect on the community for an ideal body type unless we put it on ourselves. That’s the great thing about pinup, the modeling world has a specific type but in the pinup world it’s anyone is welcome, which is why my slogan is “Embrace your inner pinup!”

Carla - source
Do you feel there is anything missing in the content of vintage books/blogs/resources that would be helpful to you as a person of color? Is there a subject you wish more people would talk about? 

Carla: Oh yeah, there are a great deal of resources I feel are missing; hair, makeup, 'how to dress' guides, etc. But I think I can try to make them available from my own experience. Because someone with naturally curly hair, who straightens it with heat can't just do wet rag curls, I would have a 'fro. But, in regards to things in vintage books, it's very rare something from the past purposefully was created to cater to PoC. They existed, such as a hair styling book by Madame CJ Walker, but they are difficult to find.


Daffny: Although I do consider myself a person of color, my color happens to be white. People often get confused when I tell them I am Latina but in fact Latinos come in all colors. I think the only thing missing is that  people assume all Latinos are Mexican, even in the vintage community because either that's all they know or all they see within the community. In fact there are all sorts of Latinos out there.


Candace: I wish there was more history instead of books only pertaining to pinups of color. I have a lot of pinup magazines and I just wish there was a good mixture of all ethnicities, instead of one dominating race dominating the other. I had to create Black Pinups because I didn’t know there were black pinups and it was so underground. I wish that there was more integration. I know that it’s not out of spite or evil, but I also think people just don’t know and some are oblivious to it. I can’t tell you how many people more so from my race are surprised to find black pinups. But I think there is progress; I am seeing quite a few black pinups in modern pinup publication. I think everything will change for the better.

Nora: I don't think it's particularly "missing" - I don't feel like styling vintage is that different just because I have straight hair/small eyes/yellow skin. I don't think the resources are missing - I mean it's fair enough that there are less resources on how to wear and style vintage cheongsams, but there aren't many Asian vintage writers out there. The white writers probably feel like it's not their expertise so they wouldn't touch on that subject.

Tune in tomorrow for Part 2 of this controversial post!

But until then... Are there any of these ladies' comments that really resonate with your experience?  Are there any opinions that you don't quite agree with?  Why is that?
 As usual, please keep your comments dignified and respectful!

For more information on Asian culture and vintage, check out Nora's post "Why Don't Asians Wear Vintage?" 

36 comments

  1. I think it's really fantastic to hear the perspectives of women of color about their experiences in the vintage world. This was a great article to read, and I really look forward to the second piece.

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  2. This is a really great piece! Thanks to all of you ladies for sharing! I think that one big issue that all of us in the vintage community deal with is people thinking that because we like to dress like people of the past, that we have the same values and ideals of people in the past even those like racism or gender inequality. It's a style like any other and it is important to treat people as individuals and not judge them based off of some sort of label or group.

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    1. I remember reading an article talking about how vintage or vintage reproduction clothing is more a modern "feminist" statement. Like we can reclaim clothing that was once viewed as oppressive, and show that it can be "strong." I know some people of color might not relate to vintage since it might bring up a past that was oppressive, but can put it in the same perspective. To take something from the past and own it, as if you are rewriting history.

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  3. Brilliant forum on a subject usually overlooked. The participants' comments are grounded and lucid. Thank you for starting this dialogue. I'm going to tweet about it to try to draw more people into the conversation.

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  4. Thank you for this blog post! I have been into vintage and pinup style since I was maybe 17 or 18, but being a PoC, I always felt like an outsider. There were few books or media sources I could look to for inspiration that "looked like me". A book called Vintage Black Glamour was published last year and I nearly cried in excitement. I will definitely look up Candace's Black Pinups business, since I am now a new vendor of vintage fashion. I need the motivation!

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    1. Thank you MaDear, you can find everything at www.blackpinups.net :-)

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  5. As a WOC vintage babe myself (I never know what to call it, haha), I think the biggest struggle for me was figuring out how to do my hair. I tried heat, foam rollers, wet sets, rag curls, just about any method you could think of and it still didn't turn out the way I wanted. I'm not natural - I have texlaxed hair which makes it easier to deal with, but I find I have to take a lot of extra steps (blowing out my hair after washing it, applying a setting lotion so my ends can be smooth and incorporated into the curl, brushing out my roots so they're not tangled at the top, hardly using hairspray) just to achieve a basic 30s-50s do. I wish there were more WOC who had my hair type that could guide me on how to achieve authentic vintage dos, because I spent a long time being disappointed that my hair didn't mimic others'.

    Another thing that resonated with me were the experiences these vintage babes had with other people on their choice of dress. I've gotten typically sweet comments like "aw, you look so pretty!" and "you're always so dressed up!" but I've also been asked if, because I dress like a 50s girl, I want to go back and live in the 50s. And if you have some basic historic knowledge, you'd know that being a POC in mid-century America was not ideal. So while I appreciate that people recognize my efforts to emulate an earlier fashion era, I wish they'd understand I don't want to replicate *everything* that happened in that era.

    Anyway, thank you so much for this post. It's really encouraging to read these ladies' stories and realize that I am not alone. :)

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    1. Hey! I feel you. I find that I just roller set my hair from the beginning with wire and mesh rollers and then I'm good to go! My hair is relaxed, but that might still work for you.

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  6. This is a great forum and an important topic. Having worked in both pin up fashion and anti rascism for quite some time these topics are long over due needing to be addressed. My biggest concern is that there is no mention here of the wearing, display and fawning over the Confederate Flag. Perhaps this is an uncomfortable issue to raise? Bernie Dexter and her husband Levi and many others who are huge in the vintage scene proudly wear it and display it claiming it has "no racist to hateful connotations" and that it just "represents heritage and music." To me this shows a severe paucity of not only understanding history but basic human relations. How Black fans of vintage can feel comfortable at events where the same flag flown during segregation and lynchings is flying? Why are those in Europe being given a free pass by events planners and even some vendors for embracing this hateful symbol? When I have raised this on occasion in the Pin Up have been accused of being "PC" and "wrong about the Confederate Flag". Another disturbing trend is white pinups parodying Native American imagery with stereotypes and fake First Nation names. Those of us who are asking questions need to not be afraid of the big names in the vintage Pin Up world and how they may react to being asked to look at history and white privledge.

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    1. Ha, funny you should mention the Confederate flag, that's coming in part 2! Read tomorrow's post!

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    2. That is wonderful. This really is a "going all the way " post. Thank you.

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  7. Another issue to consider and one I feel that had lingered from the 1950s is that while Asian, Hispanic, Pacific Islander and even Eskimo imagery was prone to stereotypes in the 1950s Pin up world they were also interchangeable with sexiness and being provocative and cute. On the other hand Black female beauty was simply derided or ignored in the world of Pin up and kitsch. Often Black women were grossly stereotyped in horrific ways. Even some of the Tiki imagery so prized by collectors today and seen in countless Pin Up shoots borders on Golliwog and Sambo art which is inexcusable. Not to be cynical but from what I've seen the vintage world today does not seem to know what to with or embrace Black feminine beauty without tokenism largely because (as Angelique succinctly pointed out) that era was a brain washing of segregation and white supremacy even in pin up.

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    1. Wow, you bring up some really great points!

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    2. I was thinking some thing along those lines when reading this article. I think blacks got the crappiest end of the white washed entertainment business. I was trying to think of a classic film that featured a cast of people with dark skin, and the only thing I could think of before the 70s was Black Orpheus which is a Brazilian film directed by a Frenchman. But there were more popular views of other cultures that butchered the imagery, it took be awhile to associate "tiki" culture as an emulation of polynesian culture.

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    3. Jennifer: Carmen Jones with Dorothy Danridge was a stand out as were Song Of Freedom, Proud Valley and Jericho Dark Sands with Paul Robeson. Cabin in The Sky is fabulous as well.

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  8. Some of what you have mentioned has been addressed in the 2nd post. Stay tuned and thanks for your input :)

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  9. Great post and I love that we hear the perspective of these lovely ladies and their identities and how they embrace their heritage through vintage. It can be a difficult topic to discuss and I'm glad these ladies embrace who they truly want to be as they should be able to.

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  10. This is a great post. I am interested for part 2. I do have to say even though I am pale with red hair and freckles, I have gotten the aunt jemima comment when wearing my hair wrapped. So don't feel alone. You ladies all are great and look beautiful.

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    1. Ha, me too! I think some people just need more headwrap role models!

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  11. I find it pointless for people to say 'what do you want to dress like a white woman for?' What were black women dressing like in those days, any different? Everyone dressed in the style of the time, unlike today where there is no definitive style of the decade anymore and people will be individuals with their clothing

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    1. Exactly Selina! All ladies back then dressed the same, it had nothing to do with color and everything to do with fashion.

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    2. Yes and no...there was a mainstream style but there were definitely groups that set themselves apart with their clothes. Zoot suits, for instance, in the 40s, worn by black men and later adopted by pachucos...the dramatically padded shoulders of pachucas. All of that is so fascinating! And there are definitely people today that preserve that. I love seeing the pachucas and pachucas at Viva.

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    3. I just saw an episode of Cold Case where the subjects were Japanese families interned in America during WW2. Not a kimono in sight. Men in dapper suits and women in 40s dresses, elegant, poised and so beautiful with their coiffed hair. All true to the times but just because white women were on the posters, it doesn't mean that every non white woman dressed in sack cloth. It's Western fashion, not exclusively white fashion by then because of non white immigrants coming over and settling in the West. Rant over

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  12. Great post -- I'm looking forward to the second part! I personally try to diversify my vintage inspiration images by following vintage bloggers of colour, and saving all the awesome old photographs you can find online of women of different races from the periods themselves. There are some very beautiful Asian actresses and models from the '20s whose looks are so stunning, and there are tons of images out there from the '30s and '40s of black women because of the fact that swing music, dance, and some of the associated styles came out of the African American community. I try to source as many of these images as I can, because it's interesting to see how women from different cultures styled the same trends in a given era, and is much more inspiring and often unique than the 500th image of a skinny white girl.

    As for other bloggers who tackle issues of race in the vintage fashion world, I love Jenny, who writes She Loves Dresses: http://shelovesdresses.com/

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    1. I like Jenny's blog, too! I'm hoping she'll be able to contribute to posts like this in the future as well!

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  13. It is hard to find hair tutorials for relaxed hair for black women, I'm working to change that. :-) And I can completely understand about wanting to live in the 50s but changing what happened in the 50s. That's also something that I will be talking about in the future issue of Black Pinups.

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  14. Ladies, my hat goes off to each and every one for you for the earnest, fantastic, thought provoking post. Thank you very much for raising the topic, Em, and to all of the interviewees for speaking so candidly and eloquently about their experiences and thoughts on this very important topic.

    ♥ Jessica

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  15. Oh wow!...this is a difficult subject but you ladies covered it with elegance, grace and honesty. Thank you for this. I'm so proud of you Emileigh!

    windycitywardrobe.com

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    1. Aw, thank you so much, Dasha! That means a lot!

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  16. Interesting post. I like what Daffny said about being a lady, and what Nora said about how most vintage writers are white, therefore there wouldn't be books on other races simply because they don't know. Respectful and informative. :) I'm going over to check out part two right now.

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    1. Oh good! I liked what Nora said too, it made sense. I'm going to do more posts on traditional clothing in the future, hopefully with the help of people who really know!

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  17. This was absolutely fascinating to read and you got a great bunch of women to be your panel. Lots to think about and discuss, well done for thinking to start it off.

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  18. What a brilliant article, Emileigh! It's something so lovely to see how many gorgeous and intelligent women exist in the world! I learned a lot and discovered many things with this text! Personally, I identify more with Nora's view: I don't care about "communities". All I want is to express myself. As Oscar Wilde once said: "To define is to limit". As Latin (I am white, with many features inherited from my ancestors, native Indians and Africans), I note that there are ethnic boundaries (heritage of a past history of injustice and violence), even in a country of such cultural diversity as Brazil. We need more attitudes like yours to elucidate these issues.

    Regards from Brazil,
    Rafaella.

    http://imperioretro.blogspot.com

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    1. I'm happy this article had a lot of useful info for you, Rafaella! I still have a lot to learn, but the idea of "communities" is a little strange to me, too. I hear phrases like "the black community" or "white America," and while I understand it can be useful when talking about broad cultural norms in different racial groups, I think it can also easily cross into globalizing or assuming everyone in the community thinks the same way. And that's dangerous!

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  19. I realise this may not be possible as earlier generations are passing, but have you tried asking grandmothers or elderly friends how they did their hair, or if your mother remembers her mother's hairdressing processes? I see many photographs at work of African American women in the 1940s with gorgeous hair styles, so clearly someone knew how to get the curls into place.

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